Dr. Joe Tatta:
Welcome to this episode of the Healing Pain Summit. Today we are talking about taking a deeper look into the psychology of eating. I have as a guest today, Emily Rosen, she’s the director of the Institute for the Psychology of Eating where she oversees business development and keeps a pulse on the fields of eating psychology and nutrition. She also teaches dynamic eating psychology and mind body nutrition in the institutes public and professional offerings. Emily’s passion for health and transformation has provided her the opportunity to speak and present internationally and is at the forefront, uh, professionals who are changing the way we understand the psychology and the science of eating that. Great intro, Emily, welcome to the healing pain summit. So the reason why I have you on the healing pain summer is because when you have persistent pain, chronic pain in your life, people often go two directions. Either they overeat, eat too much, eat the wrong foods, or they stop eating because they’re fearful of putting weight on. So they’re, they’re injured, the not moving, and then, you know, they don’t want to put the extra weight on. So talk to us about your story, how you got interested in the psychology of meeting as well as the nutritional, you know, tie into it.

Emily Rosen:
Sure, absolutely. Well, I think for so many of us, we get interested in nutrition because we’re trying to heal ourselves in some way. And that was definitely the case for me. I struggled with an eating disorder for nearly a decade and it started out really innocently enough where I wanted to lose some weight. And then before I knew it, I was really severely anorexic. And then that turned into binge eating, overeating, bulimia and I struggled with that for about seven years. So I know it intimately. And through struggling with food, I thought if I could just understand nutrition, if I could just understand the food piece, then all of my issues will go away. And much to my dismay, that was not the case. And I love nutrition. I think it’s incredibly vital, but it also could be very overwhelming, very confusing. There’s a lot of contradictory information out there.

Emily Rosen:
And for someone who has maybe a more perfectionist tendency like myself, I would read a book and I would say these lists of foods you can eat and then the next book would say, these are more foods you can eat. And eventually it was like, I can basically have lemon water and you know, I don’t know what else. So it became very overwhelming and my issues persisted. You know, I actually became more severe in my eating disorder. The more that I studied nutrition, which is not the case for everybody at all, but for me it was the case and it was very befuddling to be perfectly honest. And so I thought there must be something else that I’m missing here. And I was like, Oh right, my mind, the place that I’m making these decisions from. And that led me to study psychology and eventually eating psychology, which is a fully integrated approach where we’re really looking at how the psychophysiology of your thoughts and your beliefs and your past, your family of origin, all of that influenced your metabolic reality just as much as the foods that you eat, the time of day that you’re eating. Um, and so all of those coming together was really what helped me break free and why I do the work that I do because I feel like unless we’re looking at people’s, what they’re thinking, their behavior or their lifestyle, their past, what they’re eating, all of those pieces come together for true healing.

Dr. Joe Tatta:
So nutrition isn’t a bad thing to study obviously. How long did you go down that road before you figured out, okay, there’s gotta be another piece here? And wasn’t there like a defining moment that said, Oh my God, I’m missing the biggest thing, which is my brain.

Emily Rosen:
Yeah. Um, it really, it was that I started seeing clients, so I started working in weight loss programs, serving teens and families, and I was still struggling kind of up and down myself. But I was teaching nutrition and I thought, I’m just, I’m the one that’s crazy. I’m the one that’s broken. Um, but I would be working with these families. We are working with these children. I’d be working with clients and I saw it over and over again with them. They would come back the next week feeling defeated because they maybe had, hadn’t follow through to what they said they were going to do, or, um, people were doing everything right and still not getting the results that they wanted. So I was like, there is something going on here. I mean, I was working in weight loss and I’ve seen, as I used to read, I used to lead cleanses.

Emily Rosen:
I used to work at a yoga retreat center and I would, uh, you know, assistant cleanses and people would go on a 500 calorie a day diet and some people would gain weight. And according to medical science, that’s not possible because reduction in calories and, and so I started understanding stress, chemistry. I started understanding the influence of the mind on the choices that we make. And it’s real, you know, for me, I’m a bit of a skeptic, you know, so I can be a bit difficult. I could be a lot difficult. And I really needed to understand the science behind it because people would say, you know what you think matters, you’re manifesting your reality. I was like, prove it to me. Um, and as I started to dig into the research, there’s a ton of research that shows this. I think it’s probably not as mainstream as other things, uh, because you can’t make money on it.

Emily Rosen:
You know, you can change your metabolism by changing your mindset, but you can’t bottle and sell that. So it was really through working. I’m sorry, I’m having like earpiece trouble and I and I, I’m getting distracted by it. Somebody just try that out. Um, so I start, I started studying, I started seeing that it wasn’t just me, it was many other people who were struggling in this way. And that led me to start studying counseling psychology. I started out with a dialogue process, which is a Socratic form of questioning, really helping people discover for themselves what is the root cause of the issues that are presenting. Because it’s really hard to make universal statements here. You know, some people’s bulemia might be because of what they’re eating, other people, it might be because they’re not speaking their truth. And other person it might be because they experienced intense trauma as a child and it hasn’t been processed. So it’s really a process of self discovery. And I found that it was true for me and for many, many other people.

Dr. Joe Tatta:
So I love the idea of bringing mindset into the equation first to help heal in the physical therapy literature. There’s a lot about just how negative thoughts can actually create pain. So talk to me a little bit about how stress influences how you eat your decisions. You know, the overall psychology of eating.

Emily Rosen:
Yeah. So, uh, w the first thing I’ll say about is that a, and this is really an important distinction, is that stresses any real or imagined danger and the body’s response to it. And I feel like a lot of people are talking about external stressors like, Oh, your job, if you’re stuck in traffic, if you know something happens to your child, if you come home from work and you get in a fight. So those are all external stressors and they absolutely have an impact. And a lot of times we don’t have a ton of control over them. Like we don’t have control over the fact that our kid falls down and scrapes their knee and they’re bleeding and they’re crying. But we do have control over is the thoughts that we think. And a lot of times they feel like in the fitness or the health space, we focus a lot on what we put into our body and what we do to our body, but we don’t exercise the mind.

Emily Rosen:
And the mind is a very powerful tool. And so understanding that it’s any real or imagined danger, that means you could be sitting in a room and replaying a breakup that you had five years ago and put yourself in the same physiologic stress response as if Aline was chasing you in the jungle. And that’s really important to understand because a lot of us have negative thought patterns. We have, um, stories we tell ourselves all the time that are bathing us and stress chemistry, stress, chemistry signals the body to store weight, not build muscle. From a survival perspective, it makes perfect sense because if you’re a danger, you don’t want to start like metabolizing your meal and building muscle. You got to figure out how the heck to get out of this danger. And so we, in this modern day society, have all of these beliefs that we hold.

Emily Rosen:
Like, I’m not good enough. I’m not enough. I don’t look the way that I want. I’ll never get what I want. Like all of that actually creates stress chemistry. And the more that we can learn to control the mind and really become a master of it, not have it master us, the more that we can get rid of those internal stressors, which will then help us actually make better choices externally. If you don’t like yourself and you hate your life, it’s not that inspiring to choose foods that are good for you. You know, it’s like people would be like, you’re going to live longer. And I’ve, you know, I’ve worked with people who are severely anorexic, very sick and the argument of don’t you want to be healthy is meaningless to someone who doesn’t want to be here, who doesn’t want to be alive. And so we have to address those core human issues.

Emily Rosen:
Um, what are the things that are driving us? What actually makes us want to be here in the first place before we start? For a lot of people manipulating what they’re eating because it’s not compelling. So understanding where you’re coming from and really getting to know yourself in that way. When I first heard this, you know, I was thinking, Oh like I don’t, I’m not that bad or whatever. You know, we have our stories that we tell ourselves and I started paying attention like every morning I would get up, look in the mirror and just start beating the crap out of myself. You know, and a lot of us do this. I was at a conference and we were talking about neuroscience and one of the things they said is that 95% of the thoughts that you have today you had yesterday and the day before, and a lot of us think like every day is a new day, but it’s kind of not if you’re just thinking the same things over and over again. It’s so important to start to pay attention to that internal dialogue and really just like you would exercise a muscle exercise, having different thoughts. People who are in chronic pain understandably are in a lot of suffering and a lot of times the thoughts that they’re having are perpetual, just like the pain that’s perpetual. So it’s important to learn how to change that.

Dr. Joe Tatta:
So I just want to echo what you said because when you have chronic pain or persistent pain, a lot of times your thoughts are, I can’t do this, I’m too disabled. You’re not going to be able to learn how to move again. I, I have to only rely on medication. So it’s really important to kind of start to shift your mindset to a place of there are possibilities, there are alternatives out there and you can do that are healthy and natural. Changing your mindset is probably the biggest one. What I’d like one or two strategies people can take to start to get on a more positive mindset versus a negative mindset.

Emily Rosen:
Sure. You know, um, in terms of strategies, I think, you know, one of the things that’s very interesting is, you know, in the affirmation movement, which was so widely popular, um, I don’t think we could say things to ourselves that we totally are in disbelief around, you know, so it’s like I am really tall when you’re four feet tall, it’s like you’re not really tall. Like don’t say that to yourself, but you could say things that you actually think are true. Like, I’m strong and I’m present and I have the capacity to, you know, whatever it is that’s true for you. I don’t even want to give words to it because I think it’s so personal and I think it’s so important that you find what’s resonant for you, what you actually like and love about yourself. Um, one thing I just wanted to mention cause I think it, it really, uh, makes this very real, there was a study done in the 1980s with cancer patients where they took two groups of patients and half of them were actually given chemotherapy.

Emily Rosen:
The other half was given a placebo, a fake, harmless, inert substance, which in this case was water injections. At the end of the study, um, uh, all the people who had had chemotherapy had a very common side effect, which is they lost their hair. What was interesting is in the group that did not have chemo, but that it had the, you know, the placebo though, uh, water injections, 31% lost their hair. And what the researchers found is the only reason that that would occur is because they had the belief go on chemo, lose hair. So people mentally often prepare themselves for the worst case scenario. The problem with that is it often creates the worst case scenario. We can cause ourselves to lose our hair because we believe that’s what’s going to happen. So if you are in chronic pain or suffering for many years, I feel like I probably would have killed a lot faster if I had, there was a, there was a period where I just like, I didn’t believe it was possible anymore cause I had tried a lot of things.

Emily Rosen:
And it can be incredibly exhausting. It can be incredibly exasperating, but we have to believe it’s possible. If we do not believe it’s possible, the likelihood of the possibility will dramatically decrease. And over time it will decrease even more. And we know that perpetual thought patterns are harder to change. So the sooner we can do a pattern interrupt. Now there’s many different meditative tools. You know, I, I personally do a lot of Kundalini yoga. I did a lot of chanting meditation to start to learn to master my mind because silent meditation was, I found it nearly impossible for me. Some people, they do it the first time they do silent meditation. It’s like they experience great relief. So finding some kind of mindfulness practice is really important. Um, slowing down, uh, especially around food, people who have food challenges. Often what happens is there’s a level of anxiety around eating, which I can understand if you have perpetual digestive concerns.

Emily Rosen:
I literally got to the point where I didn’t want to eat because there was definitely fear about gaining weight and all of that story, but also it physically caused me intense pain because I had been bleeding for so long and so I had to learn how to slow down and be present with that. I knew that in order to start to heal my digestive system, ironically, I had to do the thing that was causing me pain, which was eat, but the more present, the slower I could be around it. Long, slow, deep breathing, ancient technique costs you nothing. You are in a full blown stress response. The quickest and easiest way to get out of it is long, slow, deep breathing. Even six to 10 long, slow, deep breaths can catalyze the relaxation response. If we’re making decisions and choices in a full blown stress response, we’re not gonna make the best decisions.

Emily Rosen:
So every breath pattern has a corresponding brainwave pattern. The brainwave pattern of like relaxation can be catalyzed by long, slow, deep breathing. So those are just a few very simple things. But I think finding a mindfulness practice that resonates with you all the time and people all the time will do this. You know, they’re like, I, all these parents, all these people experienced benefit with this diet. What’s wrong with me that I’m not experiencing those benefits? It’s like maybe it’s not the right diet for you. You know, maybe it’s not the right practice for you. So finding what works for you. I really try and encourage people to do that. So you talk about the metabolic power of pleasure, and I tell clients all the time that if you don’t have a plan for pleasure, you’re probably going to wind up in pain. So talk to me.

Emily Rosen:
Explain to me that concept. Yeah, this was a big, this is a big one for me. I mean, I think a lot of us get indoctrinated into some kind of belief system that pleasure is frivolous. You know, it’s not necessary. I don’t know, maybe it’s just I’m East coast, but I think, you know, California seems to get this a lot better than us. There’s, you know, we are hardwired. We are hard wired fundamentally to seek pleasure and avoid pain. It is not natural to not see, have pleasure in your life. I truly believe that a lot of the reasons that culturally people eat extreme sugar. I need extreme pornography. You need extreme versions of substances that are naturally hardwired for pleasure is because they consistently deny it. Um, I used to go to obey, I was a compulsive overeater and it was interesting cause one of the diets that they offered was a completely fun lists like pleasure free diet, which I understand because they want people to learn to kind of eat for fuel as opposed to pleasure.

Emily Rosen:
The problem with that is that the body is not going to be denied. There is a quote that, I don’t know who said it, but it’s for every diet there’s an equal and opposing binge and it’s true. Now it might not happen in one week, it might happen in one year, but if you are consistently denying yourself pleasure, not only you’re going to be unhappy and not so much fun to be around, pleasure is literally a metabolic enhancer. They have done studies where people eat a meal that they enjoy versus a meal that they don’t enjoy with the exact same metal, exact same calorie count and exact same nutritional profile. And when they eat the meal that they enjoy, they are able to absorb more nutrients from it. They’re able to digest and assimilate it better and that should be headline use, but it’s not.

Emily Rosen:
Now I’m not saying go out and eat as much sugar as you want. I know some substance can be highly addictive and there are certain foods that for me tend to be more of a trigger food and I’m not going to go out and like, you know, my freezer doesn’t have 14 pints of ice cream in it. But because I now allow myself pleasure on a consistent basis, I need so much less to be satisfied and pleasure does not need to come through solely food sources. We know this, you know, like a good long back rub can catalyze the relaxation response. Any pleasurable will catalyze a relaxation response. The relaxation response is the optimal state for healing. You cannot heal when you’re freaked out. You know a lot of people, and we see this all the time in maternity issues where women are like, I tried everything.

Emily Rosen:
I tried in feature, I tried all these things and when they stopped trying, they finally get pregnant. And part of the reason for that is because when they’re trying to get present, they’re so pregnant, they’re so freaked out. They’re so stressed out that the body goes, this is not a time to get pregnant because you do not want to be procreating and birthing life when you’re in danger. We have to remember that biology has not caught up with the modern day world, you know? And so if someone who’s in chronic pain, that’s one of the hardest because invariably pain will cause stress. But the more, and I love that you said that you have to have a plan for pleasure because it’s true. You have to be disciplined with it and you have to introduce it into the system essentially if you’re in suffering because if you don’t, um, your system’s always going to be contracted and stressed and freaked out.

Emily Rosen:
And the result of that is that healing is going to be less likely. Excellent. I love that. So we are here with Emily Rosen, the director of the Institute for the psychology of eating on the healing pain summit. Talk to me about overeating. Yeah. Cause obviously that’s the one thing that people kind of go down the road toward. How do we sorta focus people on their overeating and slowly solve it cause it’s not something you want to just cut people away from right away. Sure. Yeah, and I think, you know, one of the things that I think is really important is that I believe is that every challenge we face is actually here in service to us. And that can be a bit of a brain bender sometimes, but I think a lot of times people go, I have this issue, I’m going to attack it, I’m going to slay it, I’m going to beat it.

Emily Rosen:
And it’s like, it makes sense that you know you’re in a marriage that’s not working and you don’t feel like you have good communication, you’re not getting the intimacy you need that at night you go and eat two pints of ice cream. It’s a coping mechanism. In psychology we call it symbolic substitutes. So when as humans we cannot get what we actually desire, we will reach to something that will give us the closest approximation of that experience. For many people, eating is intimate. It is a way to nourish themselves. It is a way to get pleasure when they don’t have it in the rest of their life. If you hate your job and you hate your life and you don’t have people around you that are supportive and you come home every night and your ritual is to get in front of the TV and he’s an entire pizza, it is serving a purpose for you.

Emily Rosen:
So really understanding why it’s presenting in the first place is so important because if you don’t understand the, any kind of behavior modification you do is going to be limited in its effectiveness. It’s why most kind of, you know, treatment protocols or treatment programs, unless they have some kind of personal development component to it will be ineffective. You can control anybody’s behavior for a period of time. You know, I worked in these weight loss programs, so we’d have kids, we’ve got to regulate their food when they went to bed, how much exercise they were doing. Everybody lost weight. That was like, you know, but did they keep the weight off unless we actually did the work as to why it was coming on in the first place. I work with children, it’s never a food issue. They’re not eating like 30 bags of popcorn at night because they’re hungry.

Emily Rosen:
They’re eating it because something maybe is going on in the family system that they don’t understand or something’s happening at school that they don’t understand. And we will use food to regulate. So first of all, just give yourself a big hug because you’re using it to regulate in some way, shape or form. People. Sometimes people overeat just because of nutritional reasons. If you have a diet that is completely devoid of nutrients, which many, many people do, you’re going to overeat because the body’s going to go. If you eat a volume of food but it’s not nutrient dense, you’re going to eventually be hungry. The brain will scream hungry cause the brain is scanning for nutrients. It’s not scanning for volume. Um, so that’s number one. Just like look at are you eating nutrient dense foods? Time of day and eating rhythm have a big, big deal to do with it.

Emily Rosen:
A lot of people who are in chronic diets, uh, wake up, not hungry, so they think I’m just not going to eat until I’m not hungry. I’m going to save all my calories for later. You’re going to overeat. The body doesn’t want to do that. It doesn’t want to like, you know, go on your, you know, the black coffee and salad with fat free dressing diet. It’s not interested in that. So you are going to for sure overeat because what’s going to happen is you’re hungry. Um, so a lot of times people come to me like, I have an overeating issue. I’m like, you don’t have an overeating issue. You have an eating issue. You’re not eating like you’re, and this is not, you’re eating like a ton of food at night because you’re hungry. Um, so those two things rolled out. I don’t like to make everything deep and emotional and psychological.

Emily Rosen:
It doesn’t need to be, and in this day and age, I just find so many people, it’s not an information gap. They know what they need to be doing. They’re just, they have things in their life that are arrived that are not working for them. The other thing is, is when you’re eating, your brain is scanning for nutrients, but it’s also skinny for an experience. Most of us crave foods. Maybe it’s on a subconscious level, but you know, it’s like my grandmother always didn’t make me this meal. And then when you eat that meal, you feel comforted and you feel like, you feel like, okay, the harshness of the world maybe is softened for a moment. And so what happens is with a lot of people are overeaters or binge eaters, they’re freaked out or on food. They tell themselves if I eat this, I mean I’m sure you’ve heard this, I should say.

Emily Rosen:
So I have one bite of that. I’m not going to be able to stop. You know? And it’s like, yes I am, you know, but we have this story. So what happens is we’re terrified. And I used to this all the time. If I eat, I’m not going to be able to stop. And, and so much fear and terror around the eating experience. I put myself in a stress response, I will need more food to get the pleasure and nourishment that I’m seeking. It’s just, it’s just like, it’s basic biology. So you land up having this like self-fulfilling metabolic where you’re freaked out. So any way that you can relax the system, slow down, watch what you’re saying. Like if you have a story, if I eat one bite, I can’t stop. You need to change that story. And it changing the story. It takes reprogramming. You know, all the time people are talking about the media programming us. It is. So we have to go in and actually reprogram ourselves. And the only way to do that is through repetition. You know, a lot of people will say, well, I tried that. You know, I sat down to one meal and I tried to change my dialogue and I still overrate I’m like, you’ve been overeating for 25 years. It’s not gonna happen overnight. So we have to be patient, we have to trust the process and change the conversation.

Dr. Joe Tatta:
So I want to go back to something you said because you talked about kids and adolescence. And I just recently read a great research article. But how as the adolescent obesity epidemic rises, what is their chronic pain? Now, kids should not have chronic pain. Kids are pliable. They’re, you know, they, they don’t live with pain. And so recent talk to me about some of the programs you have at the Institute and how that might be appropriate for adolescents or maybe parents with kids who are struggling with eating disorders.

Emily Rosen:
Sure. So, um, what we offer is our primary offer is actually a certification program where we train people how to work with people in this way. Um, because uh, we have everybody from nurse practitioners, medical doctors, clinical psychologists to career changers who just understand like, I have a strong personal interest in this. I struggled in this and I really want to help other people. And I honestly think people who have lived at are probably the best because they truly understand like until you’ve lived through some of these challenges, um, and walked out, it can be hard to, to grasp. So it’s an eight month distance learning certification program. We do have also an eight week program, um, called transform your relationship with food for people to work on their own relationship with food. It wouldn’t be something that you would put your kid through like an eight year old’s not going to log on and like watch videos and listen to audios and so forth.

Emily Rosen:
But definitely, you know, kids watch, that’s what kids, kids don’t learn through you telling them, um, anybody who’s a child psychologist will tell you this. It’s like, you know, you, if you say to your kid like, don’t eat this while you’re eating this, that’s not, that doesn’t work. You know, and I’ve worked with so many families over the years, mothers especially who struggle around food and they come to me and they go, I just don’t want my kid to struggle. And I’m like, you’re going to have to heal yourself if that’s what you want because they’re watching you. Kids watch everything we do. They learn through example. And so I really encourage parents to do the work on self because that’s what’s going to help their children. You know, kids are usually a kind of like a warning symbol of what’s going on in a family dynamic.

Emily Rosen:
Their eating issues are usually, there were a reflection of the system. We’re all so interconnected. So, um, that’s what we do. This eating psychology coach certification training is very in depth. It’s 250 hours. So it’s not for the faint of heart, but definitely if you’re at all inspired about doing this work with people, it gives you the tools and the protocols and the distinctions to really be able to not just help people have awareness, to both be able to go deeper and figure out for themselves why these issues are presenting in the first and really be able to walk out and have the freedom that they’re seeking.

Dr. Joe Tatta:
So my question for you would be why would the psychology of eating be a choice for people who are looking to overcome chronic disease? Chronic pain? Obviously there’s a link there.

Emily Rosen:
Yeah, you know, I mean psychology, it’s, it’s so funny because I think in a lot of ways psychology has become a clinical term when it’s really just how your mind works. We all get a mind and it’s all right. It’s running the show, you know? So, um, we use food as the doorway. That’s just, that’s what we’ve chosen. Your doorway could be, um, a heartbreak. It could be chronic pain. It could be a digestive issue, it could be immunity. You know, people who are chronically getting sick, a lot of times it’s not what they’re eating or you know, their environment. It’s actually who they are. Maybe they have terrible boundaries. I have seen time and time again, people with chronic immune issues are also are the kind of people that in their life can never say no. They’re kind of like a doormat. And what happens is, is that affects your physiology and really profound ways.

Emily Rosen:
So people who are in chronic pain, they have to learn how to master their mind because otherwise it can just be a life not worth living. I mean, truly, I mean, I’ve had people very close to me, uh, take their lives because of just how debilitating it is, um, to be in chronic pain. And it breaks my heart because I feel like a lot of what they were doing is they were seeking out how to get rid of the pain and which is makes perfect sense and what we should, but also we have to learn how to be with challenges and be with discomfort. And from that place, a lot of times challenges will resolve with a lot more grace and a lot less challenge and a lot less strife. So I think everybody should understand their psychology. Everybody should be able to do self exploration.

Emily Rosen:
Um, sometimes we need support. I absolutely would not be where I am if I didn’t have other people to talk to because we need outside influence. Like that’s why I’m thrilled that you’re doing this because so often we feel like we have to go it alone and we have to tough it alone and we need, we need, we need feedback, we need advice, we need people who can help guide us who have maybe walked through it on their own. So I don’t know anybody who doesn’t need to understand psychology. And I don’t know anybody that doesn’t have a relationship with food. We all eat and you know, um, we don’t necessarily focus on clinical disorders. Um, most people who come to us are just people who every night there’s no, there’s never been a place for people who don’t have a severe disorder but feel like they’re struggling or consumed with food.

Emily Rosen:
So many people are freaked out around food now, you know, they don’t know what to eat, when to eat, how to eat it. And that’s stressful. It’s overwhelming. So I think food needs to be a place of nourishment and enjoyment, kind of like when you’re, you know, really young and you know when you’re hungry and when you’re not hungry and what you want to eat and all the time we’re talking about body wisdom. But if you have a lot of fears and judgements in the way, it’s really hard to learn how to be with yourself. So the more that we can do that, I think it affects every area of our life.

Dr. Joe Tatta:
It’s a great point too because a lot of people who struggle with chronic pain have had some kind of past trauma in their life. A lot of times it’s like a logical trauma. It could be physical trauma, could be sexual trauma, emotional trauma, so I think it really ties in well with the kind of work you do. Please tell us where we can find out more information about you and the Institute

Emily Rosen:
psychology of eating.com so that’s our home, that’s our [inaudible], everything’s there. We have tons of free content and videos and articles and even if you’re a non to becoming a coach or working on relationship with food, you can get a ton of value. We have articles on everything that we can possibly think of and psychology of eating.com we have a free video series there too that kind of walks you through the work that we do.

Dr. Joe Tatta:
Excellent. So I want to thank Emily Rosen for being on the Healing Pain Summit. Please visit her at the Institute for the psychology of eating, which is the psychology of eating.com and we’ll see you in the next episode of the Healing Pain Summit. Thanks so much.